Value in releasing Legacy Versions?
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Even if it means having a very simplified chart without all the chords and variations in songs with buried Keys, it’s still better than no Keys at all.
I think that this is probably more a matter of piano versus keys. I have done a couple of songs, and I think Nyx had to do this with ELO too, where there’s synth and like in 20/25% of the song you can’t hear it at all, even it feels like it’s going on. In those cases what I did, and what I think he did, is author what should be there. That makes sense. However, piano is entirely different. When you can hear like a trill followed by 10 seconds of not being able to hear anything, than a flourish, than 20 seconds of nothing, then a series of chords, you can’t connect the dots and if you author only what you hear, it’s not realistic, the piano player is not standing there just hitting the piano once in a while. That’s the scenario I think that should be considered.
Since I brought up MY example, I also want to be clear on one thing, that actually Nemo touched on: to ME it doesn’t change much.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif”> I can still play those songs just fine, I don’t play pro keys regularly anyway. The question (is there value in releasing legacy versions?) is for the benefit of the collective, not mine, of course. So I’m not pushing something that can benefit me, I’m genuinely asking a good course of action, because 1.5 years into C3 I’m starting to budge on “if it’s not complete it’s not releasable” just for the simple fact that I’m releasing R.E.M. deep cuts when we still have almost all of the best GnR songs up for grabs. If/when we lose steam big time I personally believe we should have fired all bullets, even, my position is now, if we need to consider not doing pro keys for those problematic songs. Does this expose us to the risk of becoming lazy? Yes, that’s why we’re discussing this and that’s why we need to know it so we can prevent it. I don’t have the experience in official RBN releases as some of you do but being lazy about authoring a part is not something I can consider myself honestly, so no worries there. 
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_wink.gif”>To be fair, I wouldn’t be surprised if some pro keys players were turned off by the omission of keys moreso than not charting the song at all. It’s one thing to not chart the song period, it’s another to chart the song, tease them into thinking they can play it, only for keys not to be charted. I wouldn’t be surprised if some brash and irrational keys players left because they felt “betrayed” we didn’t include the chart, even if said chart would be atrocious because the keys part was almost impossible to decipher.
That’s an argument, obviously that’s a drawback, yes. And that’s absolutely how I always felt: a C3 song is definitive, that’s it (hence my “just can’t be done without stems” clause). My counterpoint is: what about the guitarists, bassists, drummers and vocalists who would give up on us for NOT having released those songs? Those are the plus and the minus we need to balance, hence the discussion.
Also, I have 600 customs on my finished list, with some degrees of polishing of course, and 10 of those are missing pro keys, literally. That’s one in 60. If we do TWO weeks a year with legacy songs, if we release say 10 songs for every 600 full versions, I’m not sure that pro keys player is entirely entitled to feel betrayed.
No I read that part, I am just saying that over time there is a genuine chance we will be more lenient with this due to getting used to skipping parts, and then the shit hits the fan without us even realizing it.Over time, everything will be more and more lenient, and then there won’t be anything left.
Also, you should stop being so bloody rude all the bloody time, seriously.
Maybe you should stop being so quick to throw around your opinions, which you love to do, unless you’re willing to get opinions different from yours. I’ve seen you curse, be mean, and do the same things I do to other people when you’re the one who is offended or upset. When you do it is ok, when someone does it and it offends you, then it’s a big deal. Grow some thick skin maybe? This is the internet after all.
You got your Skype accounts, book a boxing match already and let’s keep the thread in topic!
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_biggrin.gif”>In the case of GnR, I listened to “Civil War” and the piano part was really noticeable to me. I found a GP file of it that seemed to have a pretty accurate transcription.
Not even remotely. A lot of repetitions, no flourishes, etc. There’s no MIDI on the Web or sheet music I haven’t checked for these songs.
To be clear: I am talking about songs that are beyond doable. I honestly didn’t listen again to all the songs I listed today, so maybe something can be salvaged with the knowledge I acquired in these 2 years, but in example Civil War is just a mess, I listened to it today. The first minute and a half, as usually, is spot on on the MIDI/GP files, then when the pattern changes nothing is accurate AND you can’t hear a lot of the stuff going on.
Also, I was not referring to songs with very inaudible parts (Wheel in the Sky, in example): we already have a policy for that and if something is buried throughout the song, it’s ok to omit it. I’m talking about songs that DO have those parts, they should be in, but, after careful consideration, we come to the conclusion that it can’t be done in an enjoyable manner.
I admit it was silly of me to think you might not have found that after 2 years. I was thinking it could be used as a base to work from and fix the inaccurate parts, but like you said there’s lots of changes and details that are really difficult/impossible to hear and it would probably wouldn’t feel right to play.
As I stated in my first post, I agree that if the part can’t be reasonably charted then it’s better to just release it without the part, especially since each case would be considered by admin.
I had a momentary lapse of judgment and said some things I regret saying. I only hope all of you guys accept my apology.
Maybe it isn’t the same case as Sucks to Be You. But what I had charted was obviously a synth pad. It even changed pitch. It definitely was not “sound effects.”I still had the .rpp and gave it a listen prior to making my post. I’m not going to contest that it’s a synth pad, because you’ve probably looked into it more than I have and I feel it is — I just can’t see what it’s mapped to, nor could I then. It’s either a part that sounds like not-sustains that is closer to the 5-button pitch mapping, or it’s the part in the backing that I blanket termed as effects (not ‘sound effects’) to indicate it’s not one of the core/typical mappings (which seems to jive with the audio you have tied to the long green sustains).
Some of the stuff like M34-M36, or M38-M39 have a change in charted pitch/shift but no clean audio shift — or, if there is, it’s such that I can’t hear it after scrubbing or listening to the part, meaning it’s likely going to be impossible to pick out in game in a full mix w/ no EQ/slowdown/pitch shifting. The stuff at M37 seems to be reflected (or at least more strongly implied by the other audio changes). Similar effects have been both not charted and placed in backing AND mapped to an instrument before, including in post-RB3 charts, so you could go either way, but for a chart like this I’d drop it (I know I might sound like a hypocrite there because I charted some really faint stuff ‘back in the day’ for RB:HP but nowadays having had more experience w/ it all I’d be more inclined to skip it).
ymmv and it does, but I felt I should elaborate that it wasn’t just something that was recommended without due consideration being given, since I know I didn’t really elaborate in the original feedback (as you said you were cutting it anyway).
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_cheeky.001.gif”>I know I’ve passed on many songs because of keys, and frankly I’m not going to let that stop me anymore (my available time may stop me but not keys.) The truth is that a large percentage of players lose out on many songs because of keys. Personally, if I were making the decisions, I’d treat Pro Keys the same as Pro G and B and make it optional and up to the author. (That does NOT mean that I would stop authoring them though when I can see a clear path to making them work. I just wouldn’t let keys be much of a factor in what songs I choose to author anymore.) The percentage of PK players has got to be relatively tiny and the tradeoff between having the song or not having it should weigh heavily in favor of having the song.
By way of example, I am (slowly) doing Eric Clapton’s Running on Faith (unplugged) despite the fact that it is keys heavy and there is no way I am skilled enough to chart PK for it, (although I could probably do a reasonable 5-lane chart.) I will of course offer to let anyone else that cares provide the PKs for it when the time comes, but assuming that won’t happen and PKs will be required I plan to just release it outside of C3’s official channel (a la Vapor Trails.)
There’s one really important aspect to this that I haven’t seen brought up, or at least not very much. It’s that RB3 sucks at managing “keys” “no keys”; you’re constantly switching back and forth, you can’t leave the keys controller connected, etc. Now, you can look at this from either side. You can say “because keys are the current standard, we should go the extra mile and always include keys no matter what, so that an All Instruments Mode setup can be maintained as often as possible”, or you can acknowledge that only ~500 of the ~2100 songs in the full disc/DLC library have keys, and say “well, the majority of the popular party songs for RB were released in 2008 and don’t have keys, so this issue is unavoidable and doesn’t affect our decision”. (If you include RBN, it’s ~1100 songs with keys out of ~4200 total, roughly the same ratio.)
Also, I think this is one of the best-stated facts in this thread so far:
[keys authoring is] going to rapidly become a time/value proposition eventually, and I think the value is diminishing.The number of people who will flip their shit about lack of a buried keys part in a popular song is hugely insignificant next to the hundreds of people that will download that song. Today, in 2014, I think most people understand that the status quo has changed, and that we don’t have stems, and they should learn to cope with what they get. It’s our responsibility not to take advantage of that, but this kind of thing will not betray the trust of a reasonable user. And we don’t give a shit what the fringe users think.
Oh, and remember that Harmonix would HUGELY turn up the keys in a song if they were buried in the original mix, sometimes to the point where it didn’t sound very good. “Combat Baby” was my personal biggest offender. We not only can’t do this, but it’s a good thing, because we get to preserve the CD mix.
The number of people who will flip their shit about lack of a buried keys part in a popular song is hugely insignificant next to the hundreds of people that will download that song. Today, in 2014, I think most people understand that the status quo has changed, and that we don’t have stems, and they should learn to cope with what they get.I’m gonna reiterate one fact: these are songs in which you CAN hear keys, just not all of the time (again, I think this is mainly a piano thing, synth can be easily faked). I am not pitching the option to omit keys for songs where the instrument is not prominent: we already have that provision. I’m talking about songs that, in example, clearly have keys for 1/3 of the songs, then it all goes poop.
The number of people who will flip their shit about lack of a buried keys part in a popular song is hugely insignificant next to the hundreds of people that will download that song. Today, in 2014, I think most people understand that the status quo has changed, and that we don’t have stems, and they should learn to cope with what they get. It’s our responsibility not to take advantage of that, but this kind of thing will not betray the trust of a reasonable user. And we don’t give a shit what the fringe users think..With all due respect, that is a horrible attitude towards the loyal fanbase we have built up. I thought the whole point of C3 was to continue the tradition Harmonix left with releasing weekly fully fleshed out professional charts, not just to “take what we get and release it for the Guitar players and parties”.
Yes, if the Keys are so buried you literary can’t hear them (like in Dragoesta Din Tei) and such, fine just skip them, no worries. But this is talk about audible and complex parts from what I gather, which I really don’t think should be left out just because they would be hard to chart.
If anything, I would say to instead look for help in charting the part from other authors (we do have several very good Pro Keys charters around after all, and this is what I did for Splitter Pine for the Norway pack), or release songs you want to do but are unable to do fully through Other Customs similar to that of Vapor Trails and just add a message that if anybody wanna help finish them fully up it could be turned into a C3 release with shared credit. That way, we don’t cause disappointing expectations and still get to release what we have but are unable to finish.
I know I’ve passed on many songs because of keys, and frankly I’m not going to let that stop me anymore (my available time may stop me but not keys.) The truth is that a large percentage of players lose out on many songs because of keys. Personally, if I were making the decisions, I’d treat Pro Keys the same as Pro G and B and make it optional and up to the author. (That does NOT mean that I would stop authoring them though when I can see a clear path to making them work. I just wouldn’t let keys be much of a factor in what songs I choose to author anymore.) The percentage of PK players has got to be relatively tiny and the tradeoff between having the song or not having it should weigh heavily in favor of having the song.This 1,000x… I have lost a great deal of interest in charting customs and the above is a huge reason why.
I thought the whole point of C3 was to continue the tradition Harmonix left with releasing weekly fully fleshed out professional charts, not just to “take what we get and release it for the Guitar players and parties”.I think this was a flawed concept from the start. Were we to have the stems that Harmonix always had, it makes sense, but in a ton of other cases good luck fudging those keys.
I am all for the “Legacy” releases. Why deprive the “loyal fanbase” of awesome, highly desired customs because they don’t have Pro Keys? Take a poll and it is guaranteed that the fanbase would be all over the “legacy” releases minus keys than not have them at all. It doesn’t get any more simple than that.
release songs you want to do but are unable to do fully through Other Customs similar to that of Vapor Trails and just add a message that if anybody wanna help finish them fully up it could be turned into a C3 release with shared credit. That way, we don’t cause disappointing expectations and still get to release what we have but are unable to finish.No, that’s almost equivalent to not releasing. In average, the Other Customs forum downloads are one tenth of our official release. There’s a lot of people who still have no idea on our forums you can download TBRB songs…
I can understand, and I’m not that far off it actually, the “Nope, I disagree, full band or nothing” position, but there are no alternatives to it except we do release them. I’m gonna reiterate it: it’s not a matter of finding help, the mixing of the songs I would consider for a Legacy release just don’t allow for a proper authoring or the complexity requires stems. It’s also not a matter of releasing it through other channels: it makes no sense for us to take 15/20 hours of work per song of a C3 author and then dump it in the “discount bin”.
Again, for clarity: “Nope, I disagree, full band or nothing” is a reasonable position that I fully respect and that I have agreed with for 2 years now; “the author must have not tried hard enough”, “we can release a perfectly good song alongside guitar only, X only, covers of TV ads”, etc. are not.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif”>it’s not a matter of finding help, the mixing of the songs I would consider for a Legacy release just don’t allow for a proper authoring or the complexity requires stems.Have you tried asking for other peoples’ opinions on these songs? I know two of the songs on that list you made were already pointed out as having audible enough keys to actually author them. If I had my headphones right now I would see for myself if I could do keys for any of those songs.
it’s not a matter of finding help, the mixing of the songs I would consider for a Legacy release just don’t allow for a proper authoring or the complexity requires stems.Have you tried asking for other peoples’ opinions on these songs? I know two of the songs on that list you made were already pointed out as having audible enough keys to actually author them. If I had my headphones right now I would see for myself if I could do keys for any of those songs.
^This, I don’t really like Guns N’ Roses myself so I wouldn’t be able to help, but in the Silent Hill customs I am doing for Halloween and in one of the Babymetal songs I am doing the Keys are insanely buried, but I did manage to figure them out after a lot of trial and error, so it’s never impossible unless it’s Numa Numa levels of buried Keys.
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