Value in releasing Legacy Versions?
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This is something I’ve been wondering since before C3 and that I would like to put forward for discussion. Very important note first: this is mainly an admin decision. I very much look forward to any contribution and any idea, suggestion and point of view but please consider that in the end we admins need to make the decisions based on what we have to live with once we’ve decided. That means, please bring on any argument you want but don’t be mad if we decide to go in a different direction even if the majority of non admins don’t agree.
So, as I was saying, this is an old argument, at least on a personal level. Before C3 I drew a line for my releases: if the song has promiment keyboards, those need to be charted; if keyboards are not promiment, they can be left out. The reason is simple: there are a lot of songs that without stems are impossible to decipher. However, I thought, if it’s an Elton John song, there’s no value in releasing it with no keys; but if keys are buried, it’s not a problem. That has carried on in C3 and that’s how we mainly deal with the issue.
Now, looking through my list of finished songs I can see a number of them without pro keys even if the song has them in. I’ve been sitting on them for 2 years now and specifically I’ve been sitting on this Guns N’ Roses content:
14 years
Get in the ring
Civil War
Yesterdays
Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door
Bad Obsession
Now, there is NO way these songs will ever have keys. There are no good MIDIs, no sheet music (I actually have the most accurate music books for the albums, the Japanese editions, and they cover just the first verse/chorus, the rest is mainly copy/paste in the books), keys go in and out of the song because of the mixing, most of that is piano freestyling. Again, not a chance that, without stems, these will ever be C3 grade. I’m not saying *I* can’t do them (I can’t), I’m saying it’s not feasible. Even if somebody were to accurately pick up all audible parts (and very good luck with that, I asked many people during these 2 years), it would still be a jigsaw puzzle of notes, because you can hear a chord every measure or an accent here and there, which makes for an unrealistic gameplay experience.
Those are not the only ones, I have a few others in the same situation and I suppose our authors have too. For that reason I ask: is there a value in releasing a “legacy version” of these kind of songs, meaning no keys/pro keys? I’ve been dealing with the “what if…” for 2 years and there is no what if: we either release them as they are or we don’t at all. So, is there a value in opening a line of customs we release that, at the author’s request and at admin’s consideration, can be released under a “nobody, without stems, will ever do a full version of these, so let’s give the players the best next thing anyway” clause?
There have been a number of songs I’ve considered and then ultimately passed on because keys were a muddied mess; however, I’m still on the fence about this sort of thing. There are probably some folks who could scrub these to death and put something workable together (I’ve been sent keys charts with all flourishes intact), but it’s going to rapidly become a time/value proposition eventually, and I think the value is diminishing.
Either way, I think it would absolutely essentially do roll with the ‘legacy’ four instruments, and that would be the absolute minimum. I don’t want this to become a slippery slope that leads to stuff like “well I can’t really hear or approximate the bass in this song so here’s G/D/V”.
It may be something that is worth polling the community about, since they’re our consumer base, if we are otherwise okay with it. I personally have no inherent opposition so long as it’s case by case and it becomes the exception, and not the rule — and yes, this means case-by-case, so let’s preemptively cut out any of the furious-hunting-for-counter-example stuff that may come up down the road.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_wink.gif”>I’m not sure why there’s so much heartache. “Israelites” had the same problem – if you can’t hear it half the time, there’s just no point in charting it. Just leave it out and move on.
I personally would be opposed. Unless the song has, like, five seconds of keys buried in the background of a bunch of other instruments, it always feels “off” when the keys are audible and not charted. When I was told to scrap the keys to Sucks to Be You, I cringed doing it. For me, if the part exists, it should be represented.
But what do I know, I’m usually the minority in these things, anyway.
For that GnR pack, maybe, as a general rule, I really hope not. I fear it will make new authors lazy and claim everything is “not audible enough” outside of stuff like Elton John and EDM, and possibly turn away Keys players from the C3 forums entirely in the long run, among other things, which would be a disaster. Even if it means having a very simplified chart without all the chords and variations in songs with buried Keys, it’s still better than no Keys at all.
I’m not sure why there’s so much heartache. “Israelites” had the same problem – if you can’t hear it half the time, there’s just no point in charting it. Just leave it out and move on.I’d have to agree with this. There has been songs I’ve wanted to chart for C3, but since I can’t hear keys 98% of the time, I just trash the song. It’s not even worth it to do a 5 lane key chart as well. Just my opinion but I prefer having pro keys or no keys at all. Just 5 lane doesn’t do it for me, so if I can’t really hear keys, I just don’t do the song.
For these specific examples: “14 Years” and “Bad Obsession” are doable.
For the others, the keys are too far back in the mix.
In general, if the keys part is really buried or hard to hear then I think it could be left out. One song that I thought of possibly doing at some point is Journey’s “Wheel in the Sky”, in which there’s a piano part that’s barely audible in the right channel. I wouldn’t even know it existed if it weren’t for two chords that were arbitrarily brought up much higher.
In the case of GnR, I listened to “Civil War” and the piano part was really noticeable to me. I found a GP file of it that seemed to have a pretty accurate transcription. Assuming you haven’t already seen it and discovered it was unusable for other reasons, it could be pretty helpful to add a chart that’s better than having no keys at all. I suggest looking for those for the other songs and seeing if there are any accurate ones, or at least good enough for an approximation that’s probably better than just leaving keys out. Otherwise, I agree that if the keys can’t be reasonably charted then it’s better to release without the part than not at all.
Even if it means having a very simplified chart without all the chords and variations in songs with buried Keys, it’s still better than no Keys at all.This also depends on the song.
If the variations/chords are audible enough to know they differ but not clear enough to be distinct, I would certainly side on the ‘omit the chart’ end versus the ‘chart something that will immediately feel wrong’ end.
When I was told to scrap the keys to Sucks to Be You, I cringed doing it. For me, if the part exists, it should be represented.The main point of contention there, at least from my perspective, was the transcription’s fidelity, which ties into the discussion here. Charting assorted backing effects as sustains — especially when you had pitch/5-button changes that seemed to ‘mirror’ the flow of guitar when the backing effects didn’t audibly change — didn’t jive. That doesn’t exactly fit what is being discussed here.
As someone who has enjoyed farottone’s unreleased songs for a long time, I much prefer a song without keys or with only 5 lane keys than not at all.
Some of the comments I’ve seen either didn’t pay attention to the OP or purposely ignored it.
It’s not and would never be an issue where authors would say “I can’t hear it” simply because they’re being lazy and that would fly. It’s been stated it would be a case by case basis, and presumably approved by an admin. So the slippery slope arguments are baseless.
The notion that releasing a song that has keys on the audio but not charted would turn keys players away from our forums is specially argumentative for the sake of being so. You’re telling me someone who plays keys would leave our forums if we released a song without keys but won’t leave if we don’t release the song at all? Really? And may I ask…leave to where? I fail to see that level of concern for pro g/b players…and if those people leave, who cares about losing someone so ungrateful?
The other thing I notice is the quick suggestions for how the songs farottone found couldn’t be done can indeed be done. Having known him for as long as I have and knowing his dedication (which you all should be damn well aware of), I find the suggestion of a guitar pro file found within 5 minutes(?) of searching as a solution to something he has tried for two years insulting.
I also fail to see how a pro keys player that would rage quit if a song was released without pro keys would somehow be satisfied with a watered down, shitty chart just “because it’s better than nothing” when currently those same people file bug reports for one chord being incorrect in an entire song.
In short. I strongly support farottone’s suggestion/idea and find most of the responses in this thread hypocritical and self serving, and not really addressing the public good. The same damn public who prefers partial songs to nothing from non C3 authors but so many of you seem to suggest would rage quit our forums if a C3 song didn’t have keys…
In the case of GnR, I listened to “Civil War” and the piano part was really noticeable to me. I found a GP file of it that seemed to have a pretty accurate transcription.
Not even remotely. A lot of repetitions, no flourishes, etc. There’s no MIDI on the Web or sheet music I haven’t checked for these songs.
To be clear: I am talking about songs that are beyond doable. I honestly didn’t listen again to all the songs I listed today, so maybe something can be salvaged with the knowledge I acquired in these 2 years, but in example Civil War is just a mess, I listened to it today. The first minute and a half, as usually, is spot on on the MIDI/GP files, then when the pattern changes nothing is accurate AND you can’t hear a lot of the stuff going on.
Also, I was not referring to songs with very inaudible parts (Wheel in the Sky, in example): we already have a policy for that and if something is buried throughout the song, it’s ok to omit it. I’m talking about songs that DO have those parts, they should be in, but, after careful consideration, we come to the conclusion that it can’t be done in an enjoyable manner.
Finally, to clarify even more, it’s not like I started authoring this stuff last week and I went “Meh, this is boring and taking too long, who cares about keys anyway…”. I’m asking a suggestion on something that should be first analysed to death (as I did for the last 2 years, on and off) before deeming that it simply can’t be done. And that’s the question I ask: if it can’t be done in a good way, no release at all or “legacy” release?
P.S. On a very side note, hey, if somebody thinks “Dood, those are easy peasy to do”, I can send you the files right now and please have at ’em.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif”>@Trojan, what I am pointing at is that this could potentially spiral downward over time if we make a big deal out of it instead of just doing it like we do now and sometimes give special permissions to leave out Keys, especially if this do include parts that are fully audible, but merely hard to chart. If we make a big deal out of it I am sure that there will be a increase in the authors who feel they aren’t good with PK or find it hard/tedious leaving out the Keys, and not even out of laziness or spite or anything like that, but because they will think it is a okay thing to do.
The thing about driving away PK players is a “worst case scenario” prediction, and not that “they would go somewhere else”, but that they would simply stop playing Rock Band all togheter due to a lack of new content for their instrument of choice.
Also I don’t think the Pro G/B comparison really works here, as that really is a extremely hard process that most authors simply don’t have the skills or time to pull off, while Pro Keys, while not easy, is still manageable and easily done only via Reaper and have been a standard in Rock Band content now for nearly 4 years.
I am sure that there will be a increase in the authors who feel they aren’t good with PK or find it hard/tedious leaving out the Keys, and not even out of laziness or spite or anything like that, but because they will think it is a okay thing to do.So the part where I said this would not be a thing, because it’s clearly said it would be case by case and would need to be approved…you skipped? Or ignored? Because this does not make sense in light of that comment.
The thing about driving away PK players is a “worst case scenario” prediction, and not that “they would go somewhere else”, but that they would simply stop playing Rock Band all togheter due to a lack of new content for their instrument of choice.
I fail to see how not releasing the song because we can’t do the keys chart helps in this scenario either. If the choice is no song or song with no keys, neither one helps those people. That’s what is being discussed here.
Also I don’t think the Pro G/B comparison really works here, as that really is a extremely hard process that most authors simply don’t have the skills or time to pull off, while Pro Keys, while not easy, is still manageable and easily done only via Reaper and have been a standard in Rock Band content now for nearly 4 years.
I disagree. Columbo and the other pro guitar charters will tell you it is very doable. Difficult? Sure. I’m sure pro guitar is as difficult to you as pro keys by ear are for me. I’m sure Columbo can chart and play pro guitar and pro bass just as easy as any of you can can chart and play pro keys.
In the end, the decision will be made by the admins. I’m no longer an admin, so my voice here should carry the same weight as yours and everyone else’s. I don’t have the time to continue back and forth on this. I think I’ve said what I wanted to say. If you guys end up deciding against it, I can tell you it won’t hurt me while I continue playing Knocking on Heaven’s Door as I have for at least a year now
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif” />The main point of contention there, at least from my perspective, was the transcription’s fidelity, which ties into the discussion here. Charting assorted backing effects as sustains — especially when you had pitch/5-button changes that seemed to ‘mirror’ the flow of guitar when the backing effects didn’t audibly change — didn’t jive. That doesn’t exactly fit what is being discussed here.Maybe it isn’t the same case as Sucks to Be You. But what I had charted was obviously a synth pad. It even changed pitch. It definitely was not “sound effects.”
But I guess you’re right, that’s not a matter of being unable to hear the part, that’s a matter of whether it was worth charting due to little variation.
I fail to see how not releasing the song because we can’t do the keys chart helps in this scenario either. If the choice is no song or song with no keys, neither one helps those people. That’s what is being discussed here.To be fair, I wouldn’t be surprised if some pro keys players were turned off by the omission of keys moreso than not charting the song at all. It’s one thing to not chart the song period, it’s another to chart the song, tease them into thinking they can play it, only for keys not to be charted. I wouldn’t be surprised if some brash and irrational keys players left because they felt “betrayed” we didn’t include the chart, even if said chart would be atrocious because the keys part was almost impossible to decipher.
I am sure that there will be a increase in the authors who feel they aren’t good with PK or find it hard/tedious leaving out the Keys, and not even out of laziness or spite or anything like that, but because they will think it is a okay thing to do.So the part where I said this would not be a thing, because it’s clearly said it would be case by case and would need to be approved…you skipped? Or ignored? Because this does not make sense in light of that comment.)
No I read that part, I am just saying that over time there is a genuine chance we will be more lenient with this due to getting used to skipping parts, and then the shit hits the fan without us even realizing it.
Also, you should stop being so bloody rude all the bloody time, seriously.
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