So…That UK…
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I’m not saying its the focal point but right now it’s definitely a factor. I’m aware of that, I’m just pointing out that it is indeed a problem.
And it’s always different but that doesn’t mean they don’t share similarities. I’m just pointing out my personal view. I’m sorry it’s not the one you agree with but that’s the beauty of civil discussion I think.
I’m not saying its the focal point but right now it’s definitely a factor. I’m aware of that, I’m just pointing out that it is indeed a problem.
And it’s always different but that doesn’t mean they don’t share similarities. I’m just pointing out my personal view. I’m sorry it’s not the one you agree with but that’s the beauty of civil discussion I think.
Of course, and I wasn’t trying to change your mind.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif”> You think that the vote was highly motivated by racial issues, I don’t. But since “that’s racist” is a game stopper, I have no reason to elaborate more on the issues. 
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_wink.gif”>See that’s why I want an actual debate rather than a straight shutdown. I want my mind to be changed because I know you and many others on this forum have better insight than I ever will so I want to be educated. I say what I say because I’m using what I know in mix with examples of history and what I know about society (which might be more than you’d think).
I don’t want to shut down the argument with the conclusion that race is a driving force. I know it isn’t. I want to learn.
Bro, you whole demeanor shows that you aren’t pretending to be an expert or anything, you just want to see all sides of the argument, which is exactly how everyone should be: You may already have your own opinion, but you’re prepared to be swayed by other’s sound reasoning and facts with evidence. This is why we have a democracy haha, so people can make an educated, informed guess about what outcome would benefit them the most, and therefore, that outcome is voted for, the most, and then the majority of people benefit from it.
And you were right about the racism thing, it’s just not as straightforward as “people who voted leave did so because they were motivated by racism”, although that was an apparent effect.
Basically, there are established, evidenced, factual pros and cons for the leave and remain outcomes, however, only few people know what they really were and I’m not one of them. But that wasn’t the issue with the referendum. The issue was the bullshit getting thrown around by BOTH sides.
I could go into more detail, but basically someone from the Brexit side decided that leaving the EU would help us control our borders. To what extent, again, I don’t personally know but the problem arose when people voted leave because they believed that it would force brown people who they do not like, out of their town/city and country.
To clarify:
- There is nothing wrong (racist) with wanting to control immigration
- Racist people voted Leave (and remain too but probably to a lesser extent) but Leave voters are not racist. Racist people are Racist, It’s characterised by attitudes and behaviours, not political opinion (although of course it might influence an individuals political opinion – but that’s a generalisation *gasp*)
- Racist people were ill-informed, opinionated, and deluded with their beliefs that voting out would have effects that it wouldn’t (thanks propaganda), because the government has the most power when it comes to controlling our borders, not the EU (the only thing that will change is the freedom-of-movement, but that still remains to be seen.)
In the end of the day, the fact that these people are stubborn, opinionated, and that they cherry-pick “facts” and otherwise can’t form a coherent argument for anything is the real problem here. I wasn’t going to vote, because I didn’t know, then I saw this and it made my mind up (caution: long video).
I don’t know if I can trust the guy in the vid. I don’t know if he has a personal agenda, or if he’s being honest. But, by judging his behaviour, I think he’s truthful, he doesn’t appear to have an ulterior motive, and I trust his professional credibility.
But again, no-one has all the answers. But he seemed to have a lot.
Also, in the end of the day the biggest point was the European “Single Market”, and whether your opinion is that it’s boosting ours or holding us down was the primary point. Everything else was a secondary or tertiary point (he does have a post on immigration too somewhere).
Anyway, there’s no two ways about it, a disproportionate amount of people were misinformed, however, the only certain thing about leaving the EU was that we’d leave the EU, so who knows what else will happen haha.
As far as making generalisations go, it’s true, there is ALWAYS an exception to the rule, so just stick “some” before “people” all the time, can’t go wrong
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_wink.gif” />I’m no political expert but I equate Brexit to the times of slavery in the USA. Britains want independence from a larger governing body, just as slaves wanted their own independence. Democrats claimed it would be too costly to give blacks their freedom. And no doubt it was costly to some. But the cost of freedom and independence is always worth it. IMO, if you’re worried about banks, stocks and Wall street… well I feel you’ve missed the point.
Just my 2 cents.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif” />nineteenforever made some great points in his posts. The one thing that was certain in the whole lead up to the referendum was that it was impossible to get to the truth of what either side was saying – partially at least because nobody really knows whether x and y would happen if we left or a and b would instead. There are some suggesting that the leave campaigners (not the actual voters) didn’t really want to win but wanted to stir things up for (insert your own reason here). I find that hard to believe really but then political machinations are a bit beyond me so who knows?
We’re all still far too close to the result to really know what all this is going to mean in the medium and long-term. I mean we’ve not even pushed the button to leave yet for one thing. This could be a great show of brinkmanship for all we know. But the feeling (careful now) amongst some of us is that It’s A Bad Thing to leave. For instance, those of us who like to go to other countries within the EU are upset that we might have to apply for visas every time. Or the cost of goods might go up. Emphasis on the word might. Just because a country leaves the EU doesn’t necessarily mean that all the benefits of the EU are lost – that’s what negotiations are for, right?
I voted remain mostly because I like the idea of being part of something and that whatever we were looking to achieve we should try and do it with others. My reason was as flimsy as that. But many have an issue with what the something is. For instance, I’ve heard it said by leave voters who I work with and am pretty content that they are not massive racists or horrible people that the EU that the UK joined back in the 70s (I think) is not the same institution it is today. And that it’s crumbling already and we’re best off out before we’re taken down with it. I couldn’t comment on whether they’re right or wrong because I have no idea. But, to me at least, it shows that there’s a whole load of different feelings on it outside of immigration.
The amount of hand-wringing and knee jerk reaction from the remain camp has been interesting to watch. The petitions that are going around to have another referendum on the subject seem laughable (on a very unfunny subject). ‘We didn’t get the result we wanted so we want another go’. Maybe all votes should be best of three in the future?
It’s been reported that citizens in other countries in the EU have been itching to leave for a while too. How much truth there is to that I don’t know. The Netherlands in particular is one that is said to fall into that camp. I wonder why that is? Is it being driven by immigration concerns or one or more of any other reasons? No idea.
One of the things that a lot of the remain voters are upset about (myself included to a certain extent) is that the most prominent supporters of leave are seemingly the sort of people many of us don’t agree with (pretty tactful there, yes?) Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Marine LePen, Donald Trump and others. Whereas there were loads (and loads and loads) of more acceptable people in the remain camp. I can’t help but believe that that sort of thinking obscures some of the good reasons that people would have had to vote leave in the first place.
I sound glib and uncaring about all this but I’m not. I have as many reasons to be nervous as the next person but I don’t know what it’s going to mean and I’m keen to find out. And we really need the dust to settle to have any real idea.
Anyway, I’ve made no real points in the above and it unravelled towards the end but as it goes all this has been swimming around my head for a week or so. It’s probably better for me to get it out.
I saw a few cases of people who voted leave complaining they felt lied to, and some said they didn’t think it would really happen/matter anyway.
I don’t think enough people feel this way to make a different result, but it’s just a funny thought.
Sorry I know this was quite irrelevant I just thought it interesting lol
Actually, I think it’s really interesting too. I wonder if the shock of the leave vote actually winning would ‘scare’ people back to the remain vote if they had the chance again. Clearly we’ll never find out (outside of polls which are unreliable) but it’s interesting to ponder.
As for people feeling they were lied to – of course they were! The lies told in campaigns are outrageous. And to achieve balance here, I’m sure the remain campaign told some whoppers too!
I’m no political expert but I equate Brexit to the times of slavery in the USA. Britains want independence from a larger governing body, just as slaves wanted their own independence. Democrats claimed it would be too costly to give blacks their freedom. And no doubt it was costly to some. But the cost of freedom and independence is always worth it. IMO, if you’re worried about banks, stocks and Wall street… well I feel you’ve missed the point.
Just my 2 cents.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif” />Wanted to stay out of the whole conversation, but honestly couldn’t help myself after reading that. You should try to take at least some interest in politics, because comparing Brexit to slavery shows Trump-level ignorance, at best, and is insulting on so many levels it’s painful to read.
As for the bigger picture, the whole racism/immigrants crisis has played a important role in this, but as Farottone said the whole european governance crisis and the increasing gap between the values of the so-called elites and the Orwellian common decency is probably the main culprit here. Ironically, since the UK was somewhat of an odd member of the EU (they were neither in the Eurozone nor the Schengen area), being out will probably increase their immigration-related issues, partially impact their financial services driven economy and lead to the political implosion of their country, but hey, you gonna reap what you sowed.
Wanted to stay out of the whole conversation, but honestly couldn’t help myself after reading that. You should try to take at least some interest in politics, because comparing Brexit to slavery shows Trump-level ignorance, at best, and is insulting on so many levels it’s painful to read.
The slavery comparison is way out of line, but the rest of the comment is accurate. Frankly, I’m surprised how little mention is being made of 1776: this is LITERALLY half of the people who voted in the UK saying “no taxation without representation”.
the UK was somewhat of an odd member of the EU (they were neither in the Eurozone nor the Schengen area), being out will probably increase their immmigration-related issues, partially impact their financial services driven economy and lead to the political implosion of their country, but hey, you gonna reap what you sowed.
Never mind the Brexit…here’s the Sex Pistols.
The slavery comparison is way out of line, but the rest of the comment is accurate. Frankly, I’m surprised how little mention is being made of 1776: this is LITERALLY half of the people who voted in the UK saying “no taxation without representation”.
Are you talking about the “But the cost of freedom and independence is always worth it” part, because to me it’s directly linked to that very inapt comparison with slavery and not the 1776 independance (which concerned the UK as well…).
As for the no taxation/no representation part, considering how the EU has no direct taxation powers, how the UK had negociated very favorable financial terms (rebates on its contribution to the general EU budget so that its net contribution equals roughly 0,5% of its GDP, refusal of the future financial transaction tax, among others…), how the European Commission & Council have been under heavy pressure of the deregulatory/free market school of economics the UK heavily influenced and profited from, and how the EU budget is voted by the EU parliament which contain UK members, with full representation and voting rights (despite the fact that the UK was not part of the Euro, not part of the Schengen area, and was the “poodle” of the US as far as foreign policy and military are concerned, often turning its back to the rest of Europe on these issues), and you’ll understand it seems far-fetched to me and a bit too theoretical/ideological to think that’s the issue here.
As a matter of fact, I imagine that the slogan is well-known in the UK and to my knowledge no one dared (or cared) to use it during the campaign, not even Farage who is prone to use it from time to time at the EU parliament. Ironically.
But it would be way more pertinent for our Norwegian friends… or for the British expats/EU citizens living in the UK who couldn’t vote for the EU referendum despite paying their taxes in the UK.
Never mind the Brexit…here’s the Sex Pistols.
The funny thing is that “Anarchy in the UK” was probably the most used newspaper title all over Europe this week. They made the Sex Pistols relevant again !
As for the no taxation/no representation part, considering how the EU has no direct taxation powers, how the UK had negociated very favorable financial terms (rebates on its contribution to the general EU budget so that its net contribution equals roughly 0,5% of its GDP, refusal of the future financial transaction tax, among others…), how the European Commission & Council have been under heavy pressure of the deregulatory/free market school of economics the UK heavily influenced and profited from, and how the EU budget is voted by the EU parliament which contain UK members, with full representation and voting rights (despite the fact that the UK was not part of the Euro, not part of the Schengen area, and was the “poodle” of the US as far as foreign policy and military are concerned, often turning its back to the rest of Europe on these issues), and you’ll understand it seems far-fetched to me and a bit too theoretical/ideological to think that’s the issue here!
The UK is in the group of nations that contribute more than they spend. You can call it “contribution”, but the concept is the same: moeny goes from the UK to the EU to be redistributed to other nations.
The UK is in the group of nations that contribute more than they spend. You can call it “contribution”, but the concept is the same: moeny goes from the UK to the EU to be redistributed to other nations.
Yeah the UK are net contributors to the EU budget (ie the UK gives more than it receives), but that’s the case for every big country in the EU, so I fail to see your point here, especially since the UK’s paying significantly less than what it should (and we’re talking 5 billions €/year of net contribution for the UK, which is pretty much peanuts).
In exchange, it had free access to the european market without internal tarriffs (UK complained a lot about common agricultural policies, let’s see how its agricultural sector will fare by itself to feed the country), had most economic policies of the Union tailored made (see the status of the London Stock Exchange for instance, who’s allowed to trade freely in Euros, freely merge with Frankfurt SE and the like…) and was allowed to cherry pick what part of the treaties it wanted to follow or not.
Where they banned or had limited voting rights in the European Council, the Commission or the Parliament ? Nope, nope and nope.
So the UK paid less, had the same representative rights as the others (UK citizens last voted for their european representatives 2 years ago, I don’t think they have forgotten) and was pretty much allowed to do what it felt like. Terrible deal, I totally get why it wanted out.
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