Has anyone used the MPA with a guitar?
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Still looking around for a reasonably priced PS3 MPA to use with our eDrums kit, and while I am aware that it can be used also with midi keyboards and the official RB Squier midi guitar, I am wondering if anyone has successfully used it with other guitars…
For example, not only there are native midi guitars out there, but I am especially interested in both hardware and software options to turn a regular electric guitar or bass into midi. That’s because we already have both kinds of instruments in the family. Software options in particular are becoming more inexpensive these days (e.g. MiGiC costs only 25$), although latency could be a dealbreaker.
So I am interested in knowing what guitar setups have you managed to use in the game through the MPA
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif” />Some people had success with the YouRockGuitar, but yeah, if I recall the messages on the official RB forums, not all MIDI guitars worked, though you can mimic the SysEx events from an official RB guitar with a PC or something, so I guess if you’re really willing to you could make any MIDI guitar (or any MIDI instruments) work.
The problem is that the game is expecting specific SysEx messages for pro guitar, I’ve never really messed with that because I own a Mustang so that’s all I really know. Maybe someone knows the list of SysEx messages and can share it, that’d be neat I guess.
I posted plenty of these kinds of details on the YouRockGuitar and Harmonix forums years ago, but neither of those forums exist anymore. From what I remember, the game will default to giving you the 22 fret (Squier) version of the pro guitar/bass chart (if multiple versions of the guitar/bass part exist at least) as long as it sees the MPA set to guitar mode and it hasn’t received the repeating Sysex message that the Mustang controller sends. The Squier sends a different Sysex message, but I don’t remember what that information is and I’m too lazy to dig out my Squier to find out. Here’s some information that you may be interested in though:
https://www.fretsonfire.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=563569#p563569
https://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=695870#695870
This guy had written a program to act as a bridge between a normal guitar and the MPA:
https://rockbandaide.com/10629/use-your-own-guitar-in-rock-band-3-pro-modes/
I use my PS3 Mustang Pro Guitar on Xbox 360 using an Xbox MPA. The only downside is that you get to play the 22 fret charts instead of the 17 fret ones, so some songs are un-FC-able.
I posted plenty of these kinds of details on the YouRockGuitar and Harmonix forums years ago, but neither of those forums exist anymore. From what I remember, the game will default to giving you the 22 fret (Squier) version of the pro guitar/bass chart (if multiple versions of the guitar/bass part exist at least) as long as it sees the MPA set to guitar mode and it hasn’t received the repeating Sysex message that the Mustang controller sends. The Squier sends a different Sysex message, but I don’t remember what that information is and I’m too lazy to dig out my Squier to find out. Here’s some information that you may be interested in though:
https://www.fretsonfire.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=563569#p563569
https://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=695870#695870
This guy had written a program to act as a bridge between a normal guitar and the MPA:
https://rockbandaide.com/10629/use-your-own-guitar-in-rock-band-3-pro-modes/
Been recently thinking again about this idea…
What is not clear to me, is if in general every MIDI guitar that’s neither the RB Mustang controller nor the RB-specific Squire requires to pass through a PC with an appropriate software that adds SYSX messages, in order to work in game. Or are the SYSX messages needed only to make the guitar appear as having 17 frets like the Mustang?
I am wondering because the cheapest MIDI pickups cost about 150€ at the moment, which isn’t exactly cheap but it’s not a dealbreaker either. So if adding a MIDI pickup to a regular guitar, and then connect it to the PS3 using the MPA, would be sufficient to be able to play such guitar in RB3, then I’ll probably be willing to do it…
…but if I certainly have to put a laptop in the middle (with at least one more MIDI/USB cable in between), with the risk of adding latency which renders the whole thing useless, then I won’t bother.
I have used a computer to translate signal from USB MIDI to 5 PIN MIDI to play rock band, there was no noticeable latency, and this was on my very old dual core laptop.
It is probably possible to emulate the Mustang (or Squier) using any MIDI devices, after all, it is MIDI, though it would be hard to debug without having access to one of these.
I don’t know about the sysex messages (and it’s probably the most important thing….), but emulating the notes should be fairly straight forward: every strings is one channel, I believe the fat E string is channel 0 (or 1 if system starts at 1).
Some people botted Pro Guitar, so if they can do it with a DAW, you can do it with a MIDI instrument.
My understanding was that the game assumes 22 fret guitar if it does not see the 17 fret Mustang controller’s Sysex message. There has been a long-standing bug in the YouRockGuitar’s firmware where it sends the wrong Sysex message and it ends up getting detected as a Mustang controller. So the game displays 17 fret version charts even though the YRG has 22 frets. The product’s engineers never bothered to fix this even though we clearly described the problem to them and they’d only have to change a couple bytes of data at most (the actual Sysex message hard-coded in the programming). There was a workaround discovered where if you connect the MPA in guitar mode (with the YRG NOT running) and start a chart, the game will force itself to assume a 22 fret guitar is connected (because it gets no Sysex message) and it will stay this way for the rest of the Rock Band session, so you can then connect the YRG and its incorrect Sysex message is ignored by the game and you get to play the complete 22 fret charts.
My understanding was that the game assumes 22 fret guitar if it does not see the 17 fret Mustang controller’s Sysex message. There has been a long-standing bug in the YouRockGuitar’s firmware where it sends the wrong Sysex message and it ends up getting detected as a Mustang controller. So the game displays 17 fret version charts even though the YRG has 22 frets. The product’s engineers never bothered to fix this even though we clearly described the problem to them and they’d only have to change a couple bytes of data at most (the actual Sysex message hard-coded in the programming). There was a workaround discovered where if you connect the MPA in guitar mode (with the YRG NOT running) and start a chart, the game will force itself to assume a 22 fret guitar is connected (because it gets no Sysex message) and it will stay this way for the rest of the Rock Band session, so you can then connect the YRG and its incorrect Sysex message is ignored by the game and you get to play the complete 22 fret charts.
Ok, that’s very clear for a YRG device.
I am rather wondering what happens with other MIDI guitars or regular guitars with a MIDI pickup, because that would be my most likely option. From your description it sounds like the game should work even without receiving SYSX messages. So why does the third link you posted before seems to suggest that a special software running in a laptop is required? Shouldn’t a direct connection from the MIDI pickup to the MPA already work, assuming the pickup has a 5pin MIDI output* and is using standard MIDI messages?
*although now that I checked, it seems the one I was looking at has a 13pin output
The lack of Sysex message means the game will assume it’s a 22 fret Squier guitar controller. Normal guitars don’t work because they don’t send appropriate MIDI signaling. Even MIDI guitar pickups won’t immediately work with RB3. The link I sent was where somebody wrote software to serve as a bridge between the guitar and the game by sending MIDI commands that the game is expecting to see.
Even MIDI guitar pickups won’t immediately work with RB3.
Ok thanks. This is the point of my question. Basically I wanted to know if some MIDI pickup might work.
My problem is that I don’t know how a MIDI pickup works internally. I thought that such pickup would output MIDI events. Otherwise why would they call it a MIDI pickup?
But now I am not even sure of that. Roland GK-series MIDI pickups don’t seem like you can plug them directly into anything else than Roland VG modules, so you can’t use the pickup itself as a MIDI controller of another device which expects MIDI input. Fishman TriplePlay MIDI pickups might work better but they have USB output so a laptop bridge is inevitable.
If there’s no way to avoid having a PC in the signal chain, maybe it’s just best to investigate a completely software solution i.e. MIDI conversion software. Although I can imagine that RB3 expects notes to be played exactly on a specific string & fret, right? For example, say you have to play a low A note, I guess the Pro Guitar chart says e.g. 6th string + 5th fret, and if you play an open 5th string then it counts as a different note -> fail, even though musically it’s the same A. I expect a MIDI conversion software to be able to detect pitch but not string/fret combination.
At the very least you’d have to have a small PC (ie. a Raspberry pi with custom programming) in your signal chain to send the MIDI signalling in the way the game expects. MIDI conversion of the signal sent out the guitar’s quarter inch jack is not likely to ever be good (since the sounds from all of the combined strings interfere with signal detection) compared to per-string hardware level pitch detection the way MIDI pickups work. The link to my thread on the FoF forum gives some example MIDI signaling sent by RB3’s pro guitar controllers, ie. events sent when a fret is simply pressed or released so the game can give you visual feedback of your fingering. That in particular is something that MIDI pickups can’t do and can only simulate, so instead of feeding the raw MIDI events generated by the MIDI pickup (or whatever MIDI module it feeds into that generates the MIDI events), it has to generate a set of events for RB3 like:
1. Fret # pressed on string #
2. String # picked
Instead of just sending an event along the lines of “MIDI note # played”.
At the very least you’d have to have a small PC (ie. a Raspberry pi with custom programming) in your signal chain to send the MIDI signalling in the way the game expects. MIDI conversion of the signal sent out the guitar’s quarter inch jack is not likely to ever be good (since the sounds from all of the combined strings interfere with signal detection) compared to per-string hardware level pitch detection the way MIDI pickups work. The link to my thread on the FoF forum gives some example MIDI signaling sent by RB3’s pro guitar controllers, ie. events sent when a fret is simply pressed or released so the game can give you visual feedback of your fingering. That in particular is something that MIDI pickups can’t do and can only simulate, so instead of feeding the raw MIDI events generated by the MIDI pickup (or whatever MIDI module it feeds into that generates the MIDI events), it has to generate a set of events for RB3 like:
1. Fret # pressed on string #
2. String # picked
Instead of just sending an event along the lines of “MIDI note # played”.
Clearly, fret-pressing detection is never going to happen unless someone uses RB specific controllers i.e. the RB Squire or RB Mustang.
But is fret-pressing detection really necessary for the game to work? I am quite convinced the answer is no.
In fact, even with the solution in the third link you posted (which might be based exactly on a Roland GK MIDI pickup, if I see it right from the picture*) the guy specifically says that one of its drawback is that it doesn’t provide finger-placement information to the game. Of course this is a pity, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me.
It is definitely possible that anyway the game wants those fret-pressing events one way or another, and played notes events are not enough, so whatever software acts as a bridge has to insert those additional events at the latest when (or just before) the note played events. It’s kind of a bummer if this is how they implemented the MIDI interface for Pro Guitar. With all this sorts of limitation, no wonder why the whole Pro Guitar/Bass idea failed and was discontinued in RB4.
*It wasn’t clear to me at all what is the software bridge doing, because the GK MIDI pickup itself used by that guy does not really even output MIDI events apparently… If I read right, you can’t plug the GK MIDI pickup into a generic MIDI input port and use it to control a MIDI brain or synth, because the pickup itself doesn’t fully convert, that’s why you generally also need to buy a Roland VG pedalboard which contains a real converter. So for what I know, the guy’s bridge software must be doing also something about it. Other pickups like the Fishman TriplePlay do include a converter and can be used to directly control a MIDI device.
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The full-software option (using a guitar-to-midi converter software) is a long shot, and it can’t tell which fret on which string is being played, only which musical note i.e. frequency.
This is why I was asking if RB3 requires specific string/fret combinations to be played, or if it allows to play the same note on a different string/fret on the guitar neck. Having never played Pro Guitar, I just don’t know. If it requires a specific string/fret each time, then this software idea would never work.
On the other hand, some of those MIDI conversion software are pretty good by now in terms of latency and accuracy, and can be polyphonic. The main advantage is that the cost for just testing the idea out is only ~20-30 bucks to buy a guitar-USB interface cable, since the software itself usually have a free trial version, while the MIDI pickups hardly cost less than 150, and there is still no guarantee they will work at all, judging from your comments.
The full-software option (using a guitar-to-midi converter software) is a long shot, and it can’t tell which fret on which string is being played, only which musical note i.e. frequency.
I’ve seen enough mention of hexaphonic MIDI pickups to know that they exists, so it’s certainly possible to tell RB3 which fret and which string you’re pressing if you’re using that (but I wouldn’t know the specifics).
Hexaphonic MIDI pickups for guitar will translate each string into a specific MIDI channel. As far as RB compatibility goes though, it’s a long shot…
To be honest, I’d hunt for a Wii Mustang, they work fine using the MPA, and you could find them at a reasonable price. (I’ve been using my PS3 Mustang through an MPA for both PS3 and Wii since I lost the dongle, no issues to note really).
Harmonix never had the resources to support every MIDI guitar on the market, they had to resort to supporting a couple models of their own design. The YouRockGuitar is the only third party controller I can immediately think of that more or less had built-in support for RB3. Most people agree Harmonix discontinued pro keys/guitar because it was too much work for the number of players that liked it. Even back in the RB3 days, pro guitar was only made available for a small portion of the songs whereas pro keys was added to every song that had keys. Presumably this is because the keyboard controller was cheaper and more players actually had it.
Regarding my mention of a MIDI module in a previous post, my understanding is that many/most MIDI pickups have to go through such an appliance to result in actual usable MIDI events because the pickups don’t have enough capability themselves.
A solution that can’t tell what string you’re playing is probably not feasible, since RB3 requires you play the expected fret of the expected string. It’s not like Rocksmith or Bandfuse where it’s actually judging what you’re playing by analyzing the guitar’s audio output. As Alternity suggests, you’re not going to find a DIY solution easier or cheaper than just getting a RB3 Mustang or Squier pro guitar controller.
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