Feedback/tips on my first custom (Amorphis – Black Winter Day)
- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I’ve been working on my first custom for some time now and have gotten to a point, where I feel like it’s not getting any better working on it just by myself. I tried to make this as nice as I could including venue, animations etc. so no need to hold this to a lowered standard. (Excluding reduced difficulties, since I’d like some feedback on the expert charting, before undertaking the theoretical and practical research into what non-expert charts in Rock Band should look like).
I hope at least a few people are interested enough in this song to play and comment on it. I chose it mostly because it is short, easy and the instruments are pretty clear to hear (or so I thought) but also because it has one of my absolute favourite keyboard solos ever. Also this sort of heavily melody-driven instrumentation is still not too common in Rock Band catalogue. Other than the aforementioned solo on pro-keys, this should be a pretty (or too) easily playable song to anyone, who is generally comfortable with expert, so no need to be scared of the “Metal (Death)” part.
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_smile.gif” /> Any useful feedback is naturally greatly appreciated but I also listed some points, that I would especially like to see addressed:
-Synch: In addition to basic tutorials, I tried to look at other peoples good works to see how to accurately synchronize and tempo map the file with the music and it feels good to me. However, I know that compared to many people I’m played with, I’m rather bad at detecting any “off” feel ie. in calibration or in customs of lesser quality assurance.
-Drums: I and a more advanced drummer friend, whom I consulted both agreed that there seems to be a variable hit pattern to the hi-hats in the melodic guitar parts, where the drummer adds 8ths in between pretty much where he feels like it, in addition to “phantom hits” from a ringing open hi-hat. Distinguishing between them entirely accurately is at least for me pretty much impossible with this kind of mixing and playing, so I tried to find somewhat constant patterns to use in more ambiguous cases and tested it a lot to eliminate any weird feeling parts. I also tried to chart these parts with only 4ths, which I don’t think wouldn’t feel too off to a more casual listener but would still be more inaccurate. I left that version in the hard difficulty charts, if somebody would like to compare them. I would definitely appreciate if a more experienced drum charter could comment on this.
I also infrequently ran to the pretty common bug, where a freeform fill does not show up, leaving an empty space in it’s place. I tried to search the forum but couldn’t find anything on what might cause this and couldn’t determine it in my own file either.
-Vocals: Pretty much everything since I do not really play vocals at all myself. It’s mostly death growls, with a short cleanly sung part in between so it’s very easy but any basic feedback is probably important. In tutorials it was recommended to end phrases on a beat unit but this song had quite a few parts, where that would lead to ridiculously long or strangely divided phrases, so I preferred to insert them in natural spots. Also there was at least one instance where the singer is sustaining a non-vowel sound (the “ng” in “spring”), where I wasn’t quite sure if I should chart a longer note or just the vowel sound.
-Overdrive/beat track: I used a half time beat for most of the song, which seems to have made overdrive really abundant using the standard amount in the design docs (calculated to an od-phrase around every 13 measures for 3/4 time). Should it be made more scarce in an already very short (and sparse on keys) song or rather just be left as is since this is a song any decent expert-player easily fcs on most instruments anyway?
-Camera & lights: I feel like I got a pretty good hang of choosing nice shots for the camera but I’m not sure I understood how to use lighting at any more than basic, automatic level. I’m not sure if the [next] commands I tried to use actually manage to do anything, I’m unsure on how the verse and chorus commands should be used (or if they even work in any form in RB3) and was apparently entirely unable to create flares, which I thought to use to accent hits in the bridge/pre-solo part. Any clarifications/tips on these (or links to such) would be greatly appreciated, since I can’t seem to understand the Harmonix’ docs properly.
Here is a few fixes to the chart, http://www.mediafire.com/download/9maj5nau2qc1oac/Black+Winter+DayRed.RPP
Thank you for having interest and taking the time to help.
Forgive me if I’m wrong but as far as I could tell you made reductions to the expert charts, that I had posted on the other tracks to make the song compile with overdrive but I couldn’t after moderately meticulous review, spot anything you modified on the expert charts. If this is indeed the case, I would take that to mean, that you didn’t find any glaring problems with the way I charted it.
Considering the H/M/E charts, as I am currently still quite poorly versed in easier difficulties, I have to ask if these are the automatic CAT-reductions or have they been at least partly “handmade”? As a comment/question regarding the lower difficulties, my personal feeling after reading the docs was that the drums on hard would probably have to lose the variable hi-hat patterns, as they combined with the frequently syncopated bass drum, seem to require a somewhat advanced level of limb indipendence as well as chart reading. Am I wrong?
Here is a few fixes to the chart, http://www.mediafire.com/download/9maj5nau2qc1oac/Black+Winter+DayRed.RPPBtw, this is probably one of the less useful ways of giving feedback. The author can not know what you changed unless they spend time crosschecking, they can’t agree or disagree with it on a single fix basis (they either use your version or theirs) and they won’t learn since they can’t know what you changed.
It’s certainly kind of you to provide an already fixed version of a chart but that needs to be a plus, you need to provide a list of what is wrong with the original in order for the author to learn and debate the fixes.
Here is some notes that I hope might help (also don’t worry about the wall of text, it’s not as bad as it looks, I just tend to go very indepth
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_cheeky.001.gif” />):-Tempo map sometimes gets very so slightly off-sync, still mostly playable but less accurate as a result (mostly a problem in the slowdown at the end and spots like 97.1, those need to be fixed). The trick is to try and have the tempo line up to the very start of a hit for best accuracy, as it is it sometimes comes every so slightly right before or right after
-When copypasting notes, notes will sometimes become ever so slightly off sync. To fix this, mark the notes with the correct note grid selected then hit Q. In this popup menu, select the “Selected notes” and “Position and note end” from the two lower drop-down menus, set the strength slider to 100% and then click OK. They should now be in sync with the beat
-Sustains: For all instruments they should have a 16th gap between the end of them and the next note on Expert and Hard, a 3/16th gap on Medium and a 4th on Easy on normal tempos. If the tempo is below 80bpm it’s okay with a 32th gap on Expert and if the tempo is above 180bpm it’s often smart to put a 8th gap for Hard, though here it should follow regular sustain rules
-Sustains for Keys: Exception to the above rule is when chords are involved on Keys, then you need a 8th gap on X/H and 4th gap on M/E if at a normal tempo. However I would say it’s okay to skip this rule for this song considering the only chord sustains comes at the really slow part at the end, so just something to keep in mind for later
-Double Pedal: I see you chose not to chart it here, I can see why as it seems minimal, however I know of a better method to deal with it the single pedal reduction in some of these cases. For example, at 14.1 try moving the kick here under the snare to 13.3.50. That way, you will preserve the movement and feel of the double pedal part while still making it manageable for one foot
-Hi-hats: Yep you seem to be right about the drummer adding in hi-hats at random all over the place. To make these easier to pick out, add a ReaEQ effect to the audio and drag the highest (4th) dot on the screen upwards until you can hear the hi-hat more clearly, then go back and add in any you see you missed. EQing is a very useful tool also when trying to chart Bass by lower all frequencies but the lowest ones to bring it out better
-Overdrive fills: I see you have placed them to always land on a crash, this is not necessary as the note it lands on will automatically be turned into a crash by the game itself when playing the fill. Instead, place one about every fourth or so measure and have it fill that entire measure, that way the drummer will have more opportunity to active the OD whenever they want and generally make it more enjoyable to play
-Sometimes it sounds like there is a crash or china hit instead of a hi-hat during a R/Y hit, be on a lookout for those and change the cymbal to blue or green if you see it
-108.3.75: This kick comes a 16th too late, possibly a copypaste error? If so be a lookout for those as well
-175.1: This measure is out of sync, it seems it’s mapped a bit too fast
As for OD fills not showing up, make sure all 5 lanes of it start and end at the same time via quantizing them and make sure they don’t touch or overlap Overdrive or Roll Lanes and hopefully that should fix it
-Growls: Even for talkies you need to avoid charting consonants (S, T, P, H, F, etc.) as part of the tube, as breathy sounds like that simply are not detected well at all by the mic to begin with, not only in the pitch department. Some tubes also seems to be longer than what is actually being growled, so fix that as well
-Held Vowels: In this song at least, if referring to parts like the “spring” at 65.1 I would say to chart the full sound, as it is very prominent and will be picked up by the microphone. In some other cases, if the sound of it becomes unhearable after a while I tend to cut of the tube where it becomes impossible to hear (and therefor will sound weird when sung)
-61.2: Sounds like “How” slides quickly up from F# to G#, so I would say to either chart it like that or make the start of the tube start slightly later
-62.2: The slide itself should be a 16th forward, so extend the first note by a 16th and then shorten the start of the next one by a 16th
-73.1: The higher harmony here (and probably solo vocals) should at the start slide at D#-C#-D# in rhythm to the intro keyboard solo notes from the sound of it
Also this is your first time charting vocals? If so, very very good job for you first try
-Beat: Doesn’t seem necessary to reduce the Beat notes here, it’s 3/4 in all accounts and making it 2/4 via changing the notes and also making the tempo slower will probably just be problematic to work around and look odd in the animations all in all
Bit hard to explain venues sadly, though these videos might help:
One thing I noticed is that you sometimes had events like [lighting()]+[chorus]. That is a RBN1 leftover, and it should instead be [lighting(chorus)] to work properly. As for the [next] events, they are placed after another lighting event such as chorus, verse, dischord, manual_cool, manual_warm and stomp to change the way the light looks, so you can for example place [next] markers in beat to the music after placing a chorus lighting event to make that light move in time with the music instead of staying static.
The best way to practice venues is really just to test it out in game and compare how it looks in game to what you placed and try and work it out via trial and error. You can also extract the MIDI of other charts and check their venues and compare Reaper and in-game for inspiration and to learn
-Guitar: During the lead riffs, the note consistency seems off at times so I would say to practice seeing how each pitch relates to each other by laying the riff out on a Pro Keys chart and then comparing the pitches you get there with the Guitar chart and try and wrap it from there. I find that to help a lot at least when unsure about wrapping
-Pro Keys; 95.1: Should be 3 notes on a triplet 8t grid here instead of 4 on a straight 16th one, C#-B-A#. Add another B note a straight 32th before the C#
-Pro Keys; 97.1, 99.2: Sounds like these 3 notes should be on a triplet grid as well
Hope this helps!
I played your song i thought it was really fun
” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_biggrin.gif” /> glad to see some Amorphis on Rock BandHere is some notes that I hope might help (also don’t worry about the wall of text, it’s not as bad as it looks, I just tend to go very indepth” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_cheeky.001.gif” />)I don’t mind at all. This is exactly the kind of feedback I hoped to get and it has been a great help. I wanted to looka at all the stuff and implement all the fixes you pointed out before replying but that turned out to be more than I’ve had time for recently, so I’ll have to do this in a copule of parts. After all, I definitely don’t want to seem like I’m ignoring you or ran off to sulk, when somebody dared to point out that my work wasn’t entirely perfect, since I hugely appreciate you taking the time to give me what I’d guess would pretty much be C3 playtesting level of feedback.
A couple of questions/comments about the stuff I had the time to work on.
-I’m slightly struggling with the tempo map especially in the solo, where the keyboardist seems to drift ahead of the drums by a 32th-64th at times. I assume it’s still better to map the tempo by drums and fudge the keyboard a bit in those cases. I don’t remember any of the tutorials talking about using the scrub-tool to find the beginnings of the hits in cases where the waveform isn’t very clear but that’s what I’ve been experimenting with. Is this ok/common practice or does it ie. introduce inaccuracy via looping the sound tens of milliseconds around the selection?
-Beat: The reason I originally started messing around with the beat track was that I thought the animations looked weird using the straight 3/4 at somewhere around 145 bpm. Since the emphasized feel of the song is so slow I felt like the movement of the characters was much too fast at that speed. Changing it back did fix the overdrive situation, though as I expected.
-Guitar note consistency: I agree with everything you said. I did actually learn the melodies on a keyboard and even wrote them as a guitar tablature but somehow I got really sloppy at the actual charting part.
As I understand it, the 5-lane charts should generally follow the tonal progression but I was wondering if it’s accepted practice to let actual finger positioning inform where and how to “cut” the note progression, when needed or should I just try follow the “O-B-Y, B-Y-R, Y-R-G” style suggested in the official docs as closely as possible. An example of what I mean in this song would be 25.1 onwards, where I meant to chart this progression as the upper part in this picture instead of the lower part, which would be closer to my understanding of wrapping just by the tonal progression. Actually, as a more general point raised by this, is it common to try to represent small skips like the minor 3rd in the pictured progression with skips in the gems, or should those be reserved for larger leaps or is it just a case by case basis?-Copy pasted crazy 512th off notes I managed to catch these at a few places myself but essentially had no idea how common those were, and what caused them. Being otherwise familiar with the principles of quantizing, I assume there shouldn’t be any adverse effects from just selecting all the notes in the track and quantizing them to a proper grid, except for any notes on a tuplet grid getting messed up. Didn’t seem to help with my disappearing drum fill, though so I must try to come up with something else for that.
-Speaking of tuplets, I’m not quite sure if I understand/agree with what you are suggesting for the pro keys at 95.1. It seems we agree on the tonal progression of the fast part being b, c#, b, a#, b, a#, g#, in which case you can’t really fit 8th triplets in there without placing the first b at 94.3.75 or making it a grace note for the first triplet 8th, both of which don’t sound right. Furthermore, using the scrub tool iI feel like the straight 16th notes fit better than ie. 16th triplet grid, which I experimented with, althought since the synth patch used here does “automatic slides” between the notes, it’s not quite as clear as it could possibly be, where notes start and end.
-97.1. and 99.1 I actually charted (not to mention played for like 15 years) as triplets at first myself. I changed it, because I hear a slightly longer note at the start of both those progressions, which is why it’s got a more swing feel to me instead of the sharp attack of a triplet but the later notes might actually fall on triplet grid. However as these are parts where the tempo map goes off synch, I need to get that firmly squared until I can be sure of anything.
Vocals: No arguments for these suggestions. This song turned out to have a bit of a problem with the growls being almost the lowest sound in the song, which makes finding the tube lengths with the scrub tool a bit hard but I guess I’ll try to play with the equalizer to hone these further. Also, thanks a lot. Of course, vocals get a pretty in depth treatment in Pksage’s and Nyxyxylyth’s tutorials and I tried to follow those as best as I could. This is indeed my first time charting vocals or almost anything else except a keyboard chart I made recently for an existing song and a Frets on Fire guitar chart back in 2006, which was so terrible to make and play, that it seemingly turned me off from anything authoring-related for almost a decade.
-Venue: Just the correction and confirmation of the commands I used is really helpful since often to my untrained eye, the effects of those are not quite clear. I understand that actually using them to the full effect comes only with experience.
Thanks again for your help and sorry if this got a bit nitpicky at parts.
I played your song i thought it was really fun” src=”/wp-content/uploads/invision_emoticons/default_SA_biggrin.gif” /> glad to see some Amorphis on Rock BandThank you, and good to see interest for these melodic death pioneers. Hopefully the song will be even better in the near future.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.