The Future of Rhythm Games
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Greetings everyone,
As most of you probably don’t know, I will be attending college this fall with a major in game programming. I originally wanted to go for game design, but I found the coursework rather easy. So I switched to something a bit harder. So how is this relevant?
The college I’m attending requires that several members of all the gaming majors collaborate to release a game. I plan on vouching for a rhythm game with custom song support built in. Even if my future group members don’t agree with that idea, I will create it myself if necessary. Ultimately, whether it be from my college project group, the company I find a job at, or even myself personally, this game will happen within this next console generation (assuming it lasts as long as the current generation).
So let me begin by sharing some of my ideas for the game. As of now, the best name I can think of is BandMaster, although I’m obviously up for better suggestions. I plan on starting with Rock Band 3’s features as a base, minus Pro Guitar/Bass and Pro Keyboard. I plan on incorporating Pro Instruments at some point, but they need a lot of revamping in order to be different from Rock Band (there are probably a lot of copyrights involved with names and such). Speaking of instruments, the game will have to rely on instrument controllers from other rhythm games, at least until a company picks up the game or someone from my college can manufacture prototypes.
Here is a base outline of features that I think this game should have (aside from the obvious):
1. Double Bass Support – Forget having two of the same song in your library just to have double bass. If you want to play double bass, you can select it when you select your difficulty. Of course, there would be a setting to have it on by default or off by default.
2. Rhythm guitar as a separate instrument – I’m thinking a max of three guitar parts per song. Any more than that is rare.
3. Automatic video recording – Similar to what FPS shooters are doing these days, the game will automatically take a video when you play a song. It will save the last 5 or so temporarily, but you can manually save your best playthroughs for future reference. Since the next generation of consoles will most likely have cameras and such built into them (like the Kinect) perhaps we could also add an optional feature to detect and film to player as well (since some people like to prove their FCs).
4. Social Media features – Since there are videos involved, it makes sense to build in a feature that allows you to automatically upload videos to YouTube, and perhaps some feature to post scores and such to Facebook and other sites.
5. Custom Song Support – I will detail this after this list since it is such an important and expansive feature.
6. On-stage Band Customization – With this feature, authors would be able to dictate how many band members are on stage and what instruments they play (to match the actual bands). I’m also thinking about allowing people to make default “skins” to make the game’s bands members look like the actual band members, but there may be some weird laws dealing with representations of famous people. If it is allowed, there would be some settings to allow the player to decide whether they want default characters (like RB3 uses), or the band members that the author of the song designed.
7. Vocal assignments – Similar to above, this feature would dictate what band members sing what, as well as gender. This way, no one will ever have to deal with a chick character singing in a male voice (cough cough Linkin Park DLC).
8. Drum Controller Fix – If I do ever come around to making instruments for the game, I plan on moving the snare to the center, as it should be. Until then, Disco Flip will have to suffice. I also plan on adding a purple pad and cymbal, although I’m unsure where. Logic says to the right of the green, but perhaps to the right of yellow would be good (so the blue can be ride cymbal only). I would like opinions on this.
9. Guitar Expansion – Some of you may disagree with me, but I think that a purple button beyond orange would be a good addition to guitar. It’s something to experiment with, seeing as shifting the hand again may make the game too unplayable. Although after authoring tons of crazy solos and such, I’m starting to see quite a few songs that would play better with 6 buttons versus 5. Again, share your opinions.
10. Expanded Difficulty Ratings – I prefer Rock Band 1’s 10 star system as opposed to the 5 we use now. I think this is important because there have been more than a few occasions when I have had an instrument part that was borderline on a certain difficulty level.
So what about custom songs? Firstly, the editor will be built into the game. I just think of Reaper built into the game, but obviously we will need to make our own program from the ground up (or get a sponsor). Then, because everything will be built into the game, both Magma and RB3Maker would be a single step (again, everything would be named and coded differently). Furthermore, I hope to allow almost full customization of the song, beyond what Magma offers.
I plan on making the difficulty fully customizable, past the 10 star system mentioned before. Think of it like editing the numbers in the DTA presently, though integrated into the game, so you would never be looking at a raw file. This may not be necessary depending on how the songs are sub sorted after difficulty. I’m also contemplating more detailed guitar and bass animations, but I’m not sure if that would be worth it.
Another important feature is MID import. Since we will most likely need to create our own program in order to support the necessary audio and album art import, we would also make it possible to move MIDs to the console hard drive. This a would be a good way to have a huge song database shortly after the release of the game. Besides, it would be cruel to make everyone chart the same songs again. I’m also thinking about some kind of clean up feature, where the player can use a setting to automatically delete MIDs after importing them into the game, eliminating the need to clean out all the MIDs you import.
Ok, so what about sharing the songs with other people? I plan on a very organized and detailed database, though I haven’t hammered out the details since there are a million different ways to implement a database. I plan on having a quick view with basic info for people who merely play the songs, then a detailed view for those who author and edit songs. Opinions welcome.
I also think a song review system is an excellent feature to add. Players and authors alike could make detailed reports that would be sent to the original author of the song, either through the console’s messaging system or through an in-game system. The author could opt out of these, should they feel the songs don’t need edited (blocking spammers would be necessary too). Speaking of editing, I plan on having a change log attached to each song, so the original author is always documented. Then, people can change the version number of the song and list what they changed. This could be a good way to give people credit for their work, and encourage collaborations.
One other interesting thing I’m considering is support for charting groups. Joining groups and chatting with other members is a somewhat cool idea, but the main reason I want to add this is to incorporate group collaboration software. I’m being influenced by Wunderkit, an old retired program that encouraged group collaboration through checklists, due dates, and such. This type of program would definitely benefit larger charting groups such as CCC, but I think it could also be used when only two or three people work on songs. Adding support for groups will also clarify the whole publishing label field.
Lastly, you’re probably wondering what will happen if an artist wants to be a part of the game? Quite simply, we allow them to contribute stems that will be sold. We will have to code them so they can’t be taken off of the console (for legal reasons), but once you buy the stems, you can add them to any chart you want. This would allow people to update their charts with stems, without having to rechart anything. If the author also wanted to create their own representations in-game (see #6 above), we could code the game to overwrite any player made representations.
Obviously, incorporating custom songs directly into the game brings a lot of challenges, but I’m hoping that most of them can be addressed. Foremost is controls. Most people would be using a controller to author songs, so I would need to think of a good control scheme that can be heavily customized to tailor to the player without holding them back. Maybe I’ll do some photo editing on a picture of a controller one of these days. Of course, I will allow computer keyboard controls (should the next generation support keyboards).
The biggest issue I face with this setup is how people will be able to play together online. Since there could be different versions of the same song, some serious questions get raised. Does everybody have to have the same exact chart in order to play the song, or can they have separate charts with different tempo maps? What happens if someone mislabeled a song and someone tries to play with others? Will they hear the audio from their version or someone else’s? If everybody is playing their own chart and listening to their own audio, do they even have to be playing the same song? What if they all have the same song, but different programmed characters? I have a couple theories on these, and I will share them should anyone be interested in debating.
These are most if not all of the ideas I have at the moment. I plan on updating this as I think of more things, and of course, I want the community’s opinions as well. I’m a huge advocate of getting input from people who actually play the game, because testers can only do so much. So if you want to debate something I’ve already mentioned, or if you have a good idea, feel free to post.
We’re all rhythm game players here.
First of all. Awesome.
Some ideas that might be cool…
Play any instrument PLUS vocals (lead or harmonies) each with it’s own path in career mode
and special types of bonuses. As you work through the career mode, you’d be able to go back
to do songs over switching between lead and harmonies or just playing the instrument.
Phrase bonuses for when you nail both your vocals and your instrument parts in a particular
section, or additional whole song bonuses for specific songs that are challenging on both.
Like a bigger multiplier for the most challenging “boss” song for each city/level in that
instruments career path. For example, if you’re on the Keys/Vox path, a late game
song for you might be Billy Joel – Scenes from an Italian Restaurant and if you nail
enough Keys/Vox unison bonuses, you get another multiplier to your final score at the end?
Also, a revamp of the song library and how you can search through it.
I hope you’re able to convince them to choose this as the project. It sounds like a great idea.
Good luck!
First of all. Awesome.Some ideas that might be cool…
Play any instrument PLUS vocals (lead or harmonies) each with it’s own path in career mode
and special types of bonuses. As you work through the career mode, you’d be able to go back
to do songs over switching between lead and harmonies or just playing the instrument.
Phrase bonuses for when you nail both your vocals and your instrument parts in a particular
section, or additional whole song bonuses for specific songs that are challenging on both.
Like a bigger multiplier for the most challenging “boss” song for each city/level in that
instruments career path. For example, if you’re on the Keys/Vox path, a late game
song for you might be Billy Joel – Scenes from an Italian Restaurant and if you nail
enough Keys/Vox unison bonuses, you get another multiplier to your final score at the end?
Also, a revamp of the song library and how you can search through it.
I hope you’re able to convince them to choose this as the project. It sounds like a great idea.
Good luck!
I hadn’t thought much of a career mode, mostly because I didn’t plan on actually releasing any songs with the game (because that would require contracts with the artists, which is an evil I’m trying to avoid). Well, I guess we could embed some charts into the game, but the user would have to provide audio to play them. I’ll be honest, that doesn’t really sound appealing ….. I’ll have to think about this.
I do like the combo instrument idea. I myself play vocals and guitar together, and I do think some kind of multiplier would be a good reward for multi-instrument musicians. I’m not sure how that would have to be charted though. Something like Overdrive I suppose, but only have the markers over vocals and the instrument in question. This is a good idea, and I will definitely add it to the OP once I think of the best way to implement it.
1. Double Bass Support
GH: WoR incorporated it as Expert+; if they were able to code an extra difficulty tier, then I’m sure it’s possible!
5. Custom Song Support
Great idea theoretically. In reality, It would be better to have them available via a reliable third-party website (I WONDER WHERE WE CAN FIND ONE).
Otherwise, the rhythm gaming community would suffer from incompatible files.
And… there’s also the issue of legality. If the game explicitly states custom song capable, there could be lawsuits for using property without permission.
6. On-stage Band Customization – Allowing people to make… members look like the actual band membersThis is where I think Activision f*cked up and fixed their mistake on Band Hero; make band members appear exclusively in their songs. Before then, we had Kurt Cobain rapping to Public Enemy.
There’s also the issue with ex-band members. Example, Axl Rose suing Activision up their ass for allowing Slash to play Welcome to the Jungle (THE BLASPHEMY).
Maybe have the characters incorporated as downloadable characters and exclusive to their songs, and in the game, have a cutscene of the member suddenly making a guest appearance and playing their instrument.
7. Vocal assignments – Similar to above, this feature would dictate what band members sing what, as well as gender.This was fixed on RB3; the idea is a must, though.
9. Guitar Expansion – Some of you may disagree with me, but I think that a purple button beyond orange would be a good addition to guitar.Incorporate open notes a-la Guitar Hero?
10. Expanded Difficulty Ratings – I prefer Rock Band 1’s 10 star system as opposed to the 5.Maybe for casuals. IMO, I separate my songs mentally in two categories: Last-tier, and… everything else.
1. Double Bass SupportI’m thinking I’m gonna have a total of 5 difficulty tiers. Depends on whether or not the purple guitar button ends up being a good idea. Because that would definitely be a difficulty up from Expert.
5. Custom Song SupportI don’t want to push releases through CCC because that would put a lot of strain on the guys here. Yeah it would be a good quality check, but that’s what the rating system is for. And I wouldn’t expect incompatible files in this game. Everything is made in the game, so how could something be incompatible? Audio maybe, but we could fix that by putting a converter in the computer software packaged with the game (for importing things onto the console). As far as copyright goes, audio and album art aren’t being shared by the game, so there shouldn’t be any issues. I’m not sure if there are any copyrights concerning MIDs, I’d have to look into that.
6. On-stage Band CustomizationLike I said, I like the idea of customizable bands, but not if some band is going to be prissy about ex-members. DLC is possible, considering we theoretically shouldn’t have to waste time making “official” content. That’s what the custom song community would be for.
7. Vocal assignmentsThis was fixed for lead vocals, not harmonies. It actually screws a few things up, because the game forces the bands to be 50/50 gender wise. So do the math, any male harmonics with more than two parts will be sung by women. It bugs me to no end.
9. Guitar ExpansionOpen strums are realistic, but I think an actual button gives the game a better look and feel. Think of a descending sweep with 6 notes (one of the reasons this button would be put in). The last note would look and feel different than the rest. In short, open strums are a possibility, but I’d prefer an actual button.
Speaking of guitar expansion, I do plan on adding the GH feature of having notes during sustains …. if it’s one guitar part. I don’t want people authoring the rhythm as sustains and then having people play the lead over that, if that makes sense.
10. Expanded Difficulty RatingsYes, but I’ve struggled on more than one occasion to decide whether a song was 5 stars or the Red Devils just because of a crazy solo or something. This will help relieve that to a degree.
To build on what WheelofKa was saying, I think an RPG style setup might have saved Rock Band. I’d have pitched Dave Grol on a side project that incorporated all the instruments in a deep RPG game with tons of challenges and cities & buying new instruments and the right to use your own DLC in the quest and all this stuff.
But the reason I bring this up here, is that if you are pitching a group, there are likely to be some people in it that don’t give a flip about Rythm games, and if you diversify with a good quest in your project, you might be able to not only reel the detractors in, but also put them to work on something they will be passionalte about, and hence, they’d be able to significantly contribute to your final product.
What platform are you releasing this game on?
You pretty much nailed all the social media ideas I posted on the Rock Band forums a long time ago. It’d be great to upload your song run directly to youtube, then share it through facebook. It’s kind of outdated now, but is still nice to have.
I also came up with the idea of a companion smart phone app that acts as the strum bar. So if you ever get someone to make instruments for you, the strum area should just be a hole that connects to your phone that you slide in, (like wii controllers into guitars), and use the touch screen to strum the notes. It can also work for keys as a stand alone that doesn’t require buying an additional instrument.
Please bring back auto-kick, different levels of “hyperspeed,” and an algorithm that can increase the number of hammer-ons to counteract bad custom fretting. Oh and use the fretboard from RB2. Much better angle. I also hate the indistinguishable difference between hammer-ons and regular notes. They improved them from RB1 to RB3, except for the OD notes. Needs some glowing affects on the side.
Purple notes.I guess if double bass is going to be a fifth level, purple should only appear on the fifth too. Or maybe just eliminate EASY. Get people playing with four fingers immediately.
To build on what WheelofKa was saying, I think an RPG style setup might have saved Rock Band. I’d have pitched Dave Grol on a side project that incorporated all the instruments in a deep RPG game with tons of challenges and cities & buying new instruments and the right to use your own DLC in the quest and all this stuff.But the reason I bring this up here, is that if you are pitching a group, there are likely to be some people in it that don’t give a flip about Rythm games, and if you diversify with a good quest in your project, you might be able to not only reel the detractors in, but also put them to work on something they will be passionalte about, and hence, they’d be able to significantly contribute to your final product.
These are wise wise words. I just think some people might be turned off by the fact that they have to supply audio AND download a chart for their song. It could ultimately be a five step process, but that may turn some consumers off.
What platform are you releasing this game on?You pretty much nailed all the social media ideas I posted on the Rock Band forums a long time ago. It’d be great to upload your song run directly to youtube, then share it through facebook. It’s kind of outdated now, but is still nice to have.
I also came up with the idea of a companion smart phone app that acts as the strum bar. So if you ever get someone to make instruments for you, the strum area should just be a hole that connects to your phone that you slide in, (like wii controllers into guitars), and use the touch screen to strum the notes. It can also work for keys as a stand alone that doesn’t require buying an additional instrument.
Please bring back auto-kick, different levels of “hyperspeed,” and an algorithm that can increase the number of hammer-ons to counteract bad custom fretting. Oh and use the fretboard from RB2. Much better angle. I also hate the indistinguishable difference between hammer-ons and regular notes. They improved them from RB1 to RB3, except for the OD notes. Needs some glowing affects on the side.
Purple notes.I guess if double bass is going to be a fifth level, purple should only appear on the fifth too. Or maybe just eliminate EASY. Get people playing with four fingers immediately.
I don’t plan for this game to be platform specific. The only reason that would happen is if the ONLY company willing to publish the game demanded it be console specific. I personally don’t agree with it, but some companies can force games into it. I don’t think social media is outdated. Certain sites maybe, but they always get replacements, so I’ll go with whatever sites are popular at the time. The smart phone app is indeed a unique idea, but we would still need to supply bits and pieces of the controller, in which case we might as well supply the whole thing. Plus, I’m sure some people may not want to scratch the screen with constant strumming. It will be something to consider though, that’s for sure. I haven’t thought much about modifiers and things, but I’m sure hyper speed and auto kick will be in there. I wouldn’t be worrying about the fretboard yet. This will be a new series, so none of the existing fretboards will be used. We will be making our own. And that was my plan for purple notes, keep them for the fifth and highest difficulty level.
Yeah, hardware support is going to be your big issue: the future of rhythm games is reliant on it.
For other psychological and social issues, maybe you’ve seen this one:
Yeah, hardware support is going to be your big issue: the future of rhythm games is reliant on it.For other psychological and social issues, maybe you’ve seen this one:
I had not read that article before, but it makes sense. For starters, we are giving the player the tools necessary to make their own custom songs. Freedom was something that article said is crucial in modern games. The question becomes how easy can we make this process, without hindering advanced players and still allowing people full creative freedom. I think the yet-to-be-decided controls will be a big factor with this.
As far as adding personal “flair” to the music goes, I have indeed thought about doing something with the Overdrive effects in Rock Band. I can say that some of those effects can be pretty epic if they are played during the chorus and such. I’m not entirely sure how I could implement this, considering you would need a guitar or bass stem in order to add an effect like that. Assuming someone does have a stem, though, I could add a feature where players assign what effects play when, then save it as what I would call an “Effect Template”. Then, before they play a song, they could select an Effect Template to apply to the song. This could end up pretty interesting, considering the game would film the song with the added effects. Like I said before though, my only issue is that the player would need stems to apply the effects without distorting the other instruments.
Drums are a different story though. It would be rather easy for players to import drum sounds from their computer, then apply them to pads using an in-game menu. This would allow players to completely customize what noises play during a drum fill, instead of being restricted to the three or four templates that Rock Band uses.
what I want to know is how much thought you’ve given to the fact that Harmonix and Activision, and the creators of RockSmith and BandFuse, have patents and copyrights that are probably going to make this a very difficult if not legally impossible idea without you obtaining licenses from them unless you go a completely different route.
that means that besides having the team members with game design, game programming, and musical abilities that are a must to make a game like this work, you will need a legal team and a lot of funding to obtain licenses to use anything already patented.
not to mention if this is in the thought process now, you can’t possibly be ready to release in at least 2-3 years, so do you think by 2016 people will still want to play music games? enough to justify all the time and funds dedicated to this project?
just some questions I hope you’re thinking about beyond the excitement of “oh I love rock band, i’m going to make my own, bettererer version!” that I know I would be all caught up in if I was in your shoes.
what I want to know is how much thought you’ve given to the fact that Harmonix and Activision, and the creators of RockSmith and BandFuse, have patents and copyrights that are probably going to make this a very difficult if not legally impossible idea without you obtaining licenses from them unless you go a completely different route.that means that besides having the team members with game design, game programming, and musical abilities that are a must to make a game like this work, you will need a legal team and a lot of funding to obtain licenses to use anything already patented.
not to mention if this is in the thought process now, you can’t possibly be ready to release in at least 2-3 years, so do you think by 2016 people will still want to play music games? enough to justify all the time and funds dedicated to this project?
just some questions I hope you’re thinking about beyond the excitement of “oh I love rock band, i’m going to make my own, bettererer version!” that I know I would be all caught up in if I was in your shoes.
To be honest, I would love for Harmonix or an existing company to pick up the idea and save me a ton of headache, but I think they would be too comfortable with their existing setup to switch to custom song support. Maybe that’s why that article thinks music games are failing, but perhaps by 2016 or so, rhythm game companies will have to take a step like this to succeed. One of my college courses is entirely about copyright laws, so I will be well versed on what is and is not copyright infringement by the time production of this game begins. I’m sure that the companies have some patents, but I don’t think that makes it impossible to create a similar game. Think about it. Just because one company patents the idea of a “first-person shooter” doesn’t mean anyone else can’t make a FPS. Maybe it would entirely be fund-dependent. I’ll know more on that in that same copyright class.
Team construction will indeed be an issue, considering rhythm game lovers are becoming more and more rare. This is partially why I’m going for programming. Technically speaking, if I can program and design the game, all I would need would be a publisher. In that case, it would start out as a low-budget indie game, but that may be what a company needs to see in order to judge whether the game deserves a higher-budget remake. I will have to see how things play out once we start assembling teams for the college project.
One of my college courses is entirely about copyright laws, so I will be well versed on what is and is not copyright infringement by the time production of this game begins. I’m sure that the companies have some patents, but I don’t think that makes it impossible to create a similar game. Think about it. Just because one company patents the idea of a “first-person shooter” doesn’t mean anyone else can’t make a FPS. Maybe it would entirely be fund-dependent. I’ll know more on that in that same copyright class.Harmonix did think about it – that’s why their patent has a great number of very specific claims.
IANAL, but copyright and patents are vastly different things. Once the lawyers show up, it doesn’t take long for them to consume all resources at $350+ an hour. Look before you leap.
I am well aware of the difference between patents and copyrights. And, judging by Harmonix’s very specific set of them, licences will most definitely by needed. Tis is why I would love for them to loosen up and make the game themselves. If not, money will be needed. Welcome to the real world. I have no need to sit here and debate how money can be raised, I’m here to gather ideas from the community so that any rendition of this game will be the best it can be, regardless who creates it.
And if there’s either no funding or Harmonix blocks the idea, then big whoop. We shared our opinions and the music industry will be short one amazing game.
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